Transcript of Interview with Shugen Sensei - Introduction to Zen.
Could you speak about zen and what you feel like it has to offer people?
The word Zen which comes to us through China and Japan in our lineage, means first a meditation, and so it is a teaching, a tradition within buddhism that emphasises meditation, and the meditation is a very clear turning inward to see into one’s mind which includes everything. Mind/body the whole of one’s life, the whole of the world. And so meditation becomes a direct pointing, a direct path, to really taking up the deepest questions that people have in their lives when they begin to reflect on not what they are doing with their lives, but what life is itself, the nature of life itself and death, questions of suffering, how to find fulfillment and peace. So in our tradition the meditation is one of the principle practices that we use to take up these questions and come to insights, realisations about the resolution of those questions so that we live our lives in very different ways.
How do you see that the insight helps to resolve these questions and help people to live more freely?
The Buddha taught that we are always functioning with some understanding, he spoke of right view, the first of the Eightfold Path, and if that view is based on misguided or a misunderstood way of seeing oneself and others all that flows that from that view our actions, our thoughts, our conversations, will be coloured or tainted by that view. So right view is to begin to understand by engaging in the teachings of the Buddha, how things actually are, who we actually are, so that we can begin to apply that understanding into our meditation and then in a sense transform or illuminate that view, to become an enlightened view so now we are seeing things as they actually are, not as we would believe them to be, or hope that they would be. So it puts us into direct contact and harmony with nature and our nature.
Often people believe that they need to control their mind and thoughts in meditation, control their feelings, what’s going on, and want to block out emotions, pain. Where do you believe this comes from, how do you understand this and what do you say to people in response to this?
In a sense we’re all control oriented, experiencing pain which is a biological part of our being, we experience pain and pleasure. When we experience pain we don’t want to have that experience and so we begin to develop ways at a very very early age to avoid that experience and thus the beginning of trying to control our experience of the pain, so we might do something in the mind, we might disassociate, we might become numb, we might distract ourselves from it. We might turn that pain into something else that resembles pleasure and so that our experience actually becomes more and more upside down or confused. So to begin in meditation to be able to actually develop courage to just experience the pain as simple emotion or sensation without adding associations, memory, meaning, significance - just sensation and in that way begin to develop courage and fearlessness towards that emotion because so much of confusion and the struggle in our lives is not so much about that we see as the source of our pain, but it’s the pain itself that we’re trying to get away from, which means in essence we’re trying to get away from something that we’re carrying with us, even as we’re turning and walking away.
That’s why so often when people talk about seeing those tendencies to control their mind, I ask them “How’s that going for you?” Because if we pay attention we see it’s not going well at all, even to the extent that we’re successful in controlling our mind, suppressing for instance, difficult emotions, it doesn’t go away it just becomes even more powerful but now it’s hidden and so it has more control over our lives, it creates more suffering. That’s one aspect of buddhist practice that does requires a faith in oneself and the tradition or the teaching and also a faith in one’s capacity to experience pain as a way of healing, as a way of being liberated by that pain, and in training we give students a lot of instruction on how to do that so it’s not just a matter of endurance - it’s not the notion that the more you suffer the more you will be in someway be made noble. The Buddha said suffering is suffering and if we want to leap free of suffering we have to stop creating it. Facing our own discomfort within ourselves is the beginning of transforming our creation of suffering, and that really involves in meditation rather than trying to control our reality, to actually face it and accept it, which is not being passive to it at all it’s very engaged, it’s very dynamic but it’s not being dominated by that pain. It’s learning how to be more skillful, more masterful and ultimately to see through it, to let go of the pain and ultimately to realise that the pain is not actually what it appears, how it appears to us.
How does the experience of seeing that on the cushion help people at work, with their family, what kind of influence do you notice that this has on people’s lives?
It really revolutionises our capacity to take responsibility for ourselves because our impulse is so often to blame the other, so if I have a difficult encounter at work it’s that person and the way they speak to me, or it's my boss, and what they are doing or not doing for me. Whereas the pain that I’m actually feeling, the suffering that I'm experiencing is within my own body and mind and that’s what buddhism is constantly turning our attention to. Buddhism doesn’t say that if you practice you will never again have difficult circumstances, it actually says those will continue to some degree, although we will be less and less at the helm of creating them. But even when difficult circumstances arise we’re becoming more and more clear about what is the nature of that difficulty and so for instance, seeing an emotion and working with it within in our meditation we begin to see that what appears to us as something that appears very fixed and solid and happening to me, is really just an impermanent moment by moment phenomena, a coming together of mind, body, emotion, past histories, mental projections that is coming together in this moment that I experience as this particular emotion, this particular form of suffering, but when I see into its impermanence I’m beginning to realise its emptiness, it doesn’t actually have any fixed nature and that means it can be realised as empty, it can be seen as changing even in the very moment that it’s happening. This makes us less fearful, about this as being some sort of fixed state or something that I have no power over, it also allows us to begin to realise how ephemeral, fleeting these experiences are so we just don’t get so caught.
In Zen training the forms we use can put off newcomers, in NZ we’re particularly wary of anything that looks too religious, what can you say to people to help them to look past this?
Well I wouldn't encourage them to look past it so much as into it. And to also appreciate that the buddha wasn’t creating a religion he spoke of path, and so whether a person believes buddhism is a religion or not is not actually that important, it's more how are we living our lives, what are we doing with our lives. In our tradition we use different forms of practice, if a person wants to engage in a spiritual life that can be a very strong impulse, what do they do, what do they actually do? And so the tradition of buddhism is the evolution of many hundreds of years responding to that question - this is what you can actually do. So that it’s not just abstract or theoretical but it’s something embodied that a person can actually take up, so meditation is a very important part of that, we also do liturgy which is chanting, prostrations, and these are practices of letting go of the self, of resistance or ideas, or just self consciousness, it’s also a practice of meditation so that when we bow we are just completely inside of the bow, just bowing. Chanting as a way of engaging the teachings in a way that helps to bypass our intellect so that we’re not just creating more concepts so that we are experiencing it at a different level. Liturgy is also expressing gratitude - recognising that we are in an interrelated situation where we are interdependent, we need each other, we support each other, and in a more profound way we are of the same essence, the same nature, we call that buddha nature, and so liturgy is just a way of expressing that and so the fact is it won't speak to everyone. There are different schools of buddhism and some use much more liturgy and forms than we do, some use very little at all, and so some people will not be drawn to it, but many are, even initially while some people may feel some resistance, resistance also carries with it some form of attraction, it moves in both directions and so what I encourage people to do is to ask questions, if they have questions about it to try and understand as best they can what it is that we’re doing and why, by talking to a teacher or a senior, and then looking within themselves and seeing if that resonates with them, if it feels like there’s an opening for that for them but to really appreciate that it’s not about looking outside of themselves, it's not about elevating something outside of themselves, it's really about turning inward in a very deep way into those things - and all the practice forms and traditions we use are really about that.
What have you noticed in yourself that has changed through your practice, if you have any examples of a particular way that you would have normally responded in a [past] situation and how you have noticed that has shifted for you?
Well buddhism speaks a lot of virtues, enlightened qualities, which are present in all of us, virtues such as generosity, patience, courage and so coming into practice I experienced a lot of the other sides of those virtues, impatience, not always being generous, loving kindness is an important virtue within buddhism. I was not always a kind person, I wasn’t a mean person or a bad person but my heart was not very open, I was mostly concerned about myself, even in my intimate relationships with others. I’ve seen a huge enlargening, we tend to think of ourselves as this discrete body that is encapsulated within this skin and that has to live this autonomous life, and that’s very confining in fact. And what I’ve found was as that attachments to all the things that I identified with as: who I am, who I believe myself to be, who I think other people think I am, and was able to make contact with what we speak of as our self-nature and let go of a lot of these ideas, these attachments, that basic self that is present within everyone, was able to, in a sense, be brought out, be brought to life.
Could you tell us about your trips to NZ, what happens here each year and what you see going on here in NZ?
So every year I come and the sangha (community) gathers from around the country and we also invite newcomers who are new to buddhism, meditation, or people from other buddhist communities who would like to join us - so it’s really open to everyone. I usually give a public talk, and we’ll usually do a weekend retreat that is less meditation based, although meditation is a part of it so it’s more accessible to people, and it’s usually focusing on some buddhist teaching or some aspect of buddhist practice that would be relevant to a newcomer, as well to somebody who might have been practicing for some time. And that leads into a full week silent meditation intensive we call sesshin, which is a very much a meditation based retreat so that’s more for people who have been meditating for some time. It’s more intense it’s also very, very powerful because it’s going very deep within the meditation, within the silence, and also doing that with a group of people - so that’s very powerful. There are teachings each day, there are opportunities to directly work with a teacher each day so there's guidance and support, but there's also a lot of time in one's own solitude so there is opportunity to go very deep within one's own meditative practice and really begin to see much more of what that can be for them.
And what I see every year that I come is a very dedicated group of people who have been gathering together some for many many years, we’re almost 30 years here now in NZ and who also have very strong communities in different areas around the country where they gather regularly and do meditation, do study, do different forms of practice, they engage in different forms of social action, advocating for the environment, and so it’s very much a community based and practice based group of people. It's lovely, it's wonderful, people make connections with each other, it helps them to feel not so alone as meditating and meditators can feel very alone particularly if they don’t have people around them who understand what they’re doing, it can feel very isolating, and so to make contact with people who are doing this can feel very valuable and supportive.
Is there anything else that you’d like to say to people who might be watching this video who are looking for answers and who want to find peace?
Buddhism really values the search, the impulse within us to begin to wonder about, question, examine our lives and reflect on what more is there? We’re all schooled in how to create families, how to form relationships, how to find employment and livelihood, how to pursue different interests, spiritual practice, certainly buddhist practice is really looking at the fundamental issues of what is this life and how do we live it in a way that is the most fulfilling, brings the most happiness, and also is the most of service to others. And so I encourage anyone who feels such an impulse, to nurture that and to follow their trust and to explore whatever traditions, whatever practices they feel resonance with and have some affinity with, and to keep developing that until they feel that they have found something that they can really trust, and then to really engage that. And so anybody interested in buddhism living in NZ I would certainly encourage them to come to one of our affiliate groups, to learn meditation, to meet this group of people and to just explore it. They may find that it doesn’t resonate with them ultimately, but that it might help them to take the next step or they may find that it really does speak to them in a deep way and that they can then be guided in how to take more steps to deepen that. The most important thing is to not ignore that impulse, to really examine and look at one’s life in a deep way, and to take care of that.
The word Zen which comes to us through China and Japan in our lineage, means first a meditation, and so it is a teaching, a tradition within buddhism that emphasises meditation, and the meditation is a very clear turning inward to see into one’s mind which includes everything. Mind/body the whole of one’s life, the whole of the world. And so meditation becomes a direct pointing, a direct path, to really taking up the deepest questions that people have in their lives when they begin to reflect on not what they are doing with their lives, but what life is itself, the nature of life itself and death, questions of suffering, how to find fulfillment and peace. So in our tradition the meditation is one of the principle practices that we use to take up these questions and come to insights, realisations about the resolution of those questions so that we live our lives in very different ways.
How do you see that the insight helps to resolve these questions and help people to live more freely?
The Buddha taught that we are always functioning with some understanding, he spoke of right view, the first of the Eightfold Path, and if that view is based on misguided or a misunderstood way of seeing oneself and others all that flows that from that view our actions, our thoughts, our conversations, will be coloured or tainted by that view. So right view is to begin to understand by engaging in the teachings of the Buddha, how things actually are, who we actually are, so that we can begin to apply that understanding into our meditation and then in a sense transform or illuminate that view, to become an enlightened view so now we are seeing things as they actually are, not as we would believe them to be, or hope that they would be. So it puts us into direct contact and harmony with nature and our nature.
Often people believe that they need to control their mind and thoughts in meditation, control their feelings, what’s going on, and want to block out emotions, pain. Where do you believe this comes from, how do you understand this and what do you say to people in response to this?
In a sense we’re all control oriented, experiencing pain which is a biological part of our being, we experience pain and pleasure. When we experience pain we don’t want to have that experience and so we begin to develop ways at a very very early age to avoid that experience and thus the beginning of trying to control our experience of the pain, so we might do something in the mind, we might disassociate, we might become numb, we might distract ourselves from it. We might turn that pain into something else that resembles pleasure and so that our experience actually becomes more and more upside down or confused. So to begin in meditation to be able to actually develop courage to just experience the pain as simple emotion or sensation without adding associations, memory, meaning, significance - just sensation and in that way begin to develop courage and fearlessness towards that emotion because so much of confusion and the struggle in our lives is not so much about that we see as the source of our pain, but it’s the pain itself that we’re trying to get away from, which means in essence we’re trying to get away from something that we’re carrying with us, even as we’re turning and walking away.
That’s why so often when people talk about seeing those tendencies to control their mind, I ask them “How’s that going for you?” Because if we pay attention we see it’s not going well at all, even to the extent that we’re successful in controlling our mind, suppressing for instance, difficult emotions, it doesn’t go away it just becomes even more powerful but now it’s hidden and so it has more control over our lives, it creates more suffering. That’s one aspect of buddhist practice that does requires a faith in oneself and the tradition or the teaching and also a faith in one’s capacity to experience pain as a way of healing, as a way of being liberated by that pain, and in training we give students a lot of instruction on how to do that so it’s not just a matter of endurance - it’s not the notion that the more you suffer the more you will be in someway be made noble. The Buddha said suffering is suffering and if we want to leap free of suffering we have to stop creating it. Facing our own discomfort within ourselves is the beginning of transforming our creation of suffering, and that really involves in meditation rather than trying to control our reality, to actually face it and accept it, which is not being passive to it at all it’s very engaged, it’s very dynamic but it’s not being dominated by that pain. It’s learning how to be more skillful, more masterful and ultimately to see through it, to let go of the pain and ultimately to realise that the pain is not actually what it appears, how it appears to us.
How does the experience of seeing that on the cushion help people at work, with their family, what kind of influence do you notice that this has on people’s lives?
It really revolutionises our capacity to take responsibility for ourselves because our impulse is so often to blame the other, so if I have a difficult encounter at work it’s that person and the way they speak to me, or it's my boss, and what they are doing or not doing for me. Whereas the pain that I’m actually feeling, the suffering that I'm experiencing is within my own body and mind and that’s what buddhism is constantly turning our attention to. Buddhism doesn’t say that if you practice you will never again have difficult circumstances, it actually says those will continue to some degree, although we will be less and less at the helm of creating them. But even when difficult circumstances arise we’re becoming more and more clear about what is the nature of that difficulty and so for instance, seeing an emotion and working with it within in our meditation we begin to see that what appears to us as something that appears very fixed and solid and happening to me, is really just an impermanent moment by moment phenomena, a coming together of mind, body, emotion, past histories, mental projections that is coming together in this moment that I experience as this particular emotion, this particular form of suffering, but when I see into its impermanence I’m beginning to realise its emptiness, it doesn’t actually have any fixed nature and that means it can be realised as empty, it can be seen as changing even in the very moment that it’s happening. This makes us less fearful, about this as being some sort of fixed state or something that I have no power over, it also allows us to begin to realise how ephemeral, fleeting these experiences are so we just don’t get so caught.
In Zen training the forms we use can put off newcomers, in NZ we’re particularly wary of anything that looks too religious, what can you say to people to help them to look past this?
Well I wouldn't encourage them to look past it so much as into it. And to also appreciate that the buddha wasn’t creating a religion he spoke of path, and so whether a person believes buddhism is a religion or not is not actually that important, it's more how are we living our lives, what are we doing with our lives. In our tradition we use different forms of practice, if a person wants to engage in a spiritual life that can be a very strong impulse, what do they do, what do they actually do? And so the tradition of buddhism is the evolution of many hundreds of years responding to that question - this is what you can actually do. So that it’s not just abstract or theoretical but it’s something embodied that a person can actually take up, so meditation is a very important part of that, we also do liturgy which is chanting, prostrations, and these are practices of letting go of the self, of resistance or ideas, or just self consciousness, it’s also a practice of meditation so that when we bow we are just completely inside of the bow, just bowing. Chanting as a way of engaging the teachings in a way that helps to bypass our intellect so that we’re not just creating more concepts so that we are experiencing it at a different level. Liturgy is also expressing gratitude - recognising that we are in an interrelated situation where we are interdependent, we need each other, we support each other, and in a more profound way we are of the same essence, the same nature, we call that buddha nature, and so liturgy is just a way of expressing that and so the fact is it won't speak to everyone. There are different schools of buddhism and some use much more liturgy and forms than we do, some use very little at all, and so some people will not be drawn to it, but many are, even initially while some people may feel some resistance, resistance also carries with it some form of attraction, it moves in both directions and so what I encourage people to do is to ask questions, if they have questions about it to try and understand as best they can what it is that we’re doing and why, by talking to a teacher or a senior, and then looking within themselves and seeing if that resonates with them, if it feels like there’s an opening for that for them but to really appreciate that it’s not about looking outside of themselves, it's not about elevating something outside of themselves, it's really about turning inward in a very deep way into those things - and all the practice forms and traditions we use are really about that.
What have you noticed in yourself that has changed through your practice, if you have any examples of a particular way that you would have normally responded in a [past] situation and how you have noticed that has shifted for you?
Well buddhism speaks a lot of virtues, enlightened qualities, which are present in all of us, virtues such as generosity, patience, courage and so coming into practice I experienced a lot of the other sides of those virtues, impatience, not always being generous, loving kindness is an important virtue within buddhism. I was not always a kind person, I wasn’t a mean person or a bad person but my heart was not very open, I was mostly concerned about myself, even in my intimate relationships with others. I’ve seen a huge enlargening, we tend to think of ourselves as this discrete body that is encapsulated within this skin and that has to live this autonomous life, and that’s very confining in fact. And what I’ve found was as that attachments to all the things that I identified with as: who I am, who I believe myself to be, who I think other people think I am, and was able to make contact with what we speak of as our self-nature and let go of a lot of these ideas, these attachments, that basic self that is present within everyone, was able to, in a sense, be brought out, be brought to life.
Could you tell us about your trips to NZ, what happens here each year and what you see going on here in NZ?
So every year I come and the sangha (community) gathers from around the country and we also invite newcomers who are new to buddhism, meditation, or people from other buddhist communities who would like to join us - so it’s really open to everyone. I usually give a public talk, and we’ll usually do a weekend retreat that is less meditation based, although meditation is a part of it so it’s more accessible to people, and it’s usually focusing on some buddhist teaching or some aspect of buddhist practice that would be relevant to a newcomer, as well to somebody who might have been practicing for some time. And that leads into a full week silent meditation intensive we call sesshin, which is a very much a meditation based retreat so that’s more for people who have been meditating for some time. It’s more intense it’s also very, very powerful because it’s going very deep within the meditation, within the silence, and also doing that with a group of people - so that’s very powerful. There are teachings each day, there are opportunities to directly work with a teacher each day so there's guidance and support, but there's also a lot of time in one's own solitude so there is opportunity to go very deep within one's own meditative practice and really begin to see much more of what that can be for them.
And what I see every year that I come is a very dedicated group of people who have been gathering together some for many many years, we’re almost 30 years here now in NZ and who also have very strong communities in different areas around the country where they gather regularly and do meditation, do study, do different forms of practice, they engage in different forms of social action, advocating for the environment, and so it’s very much a community based and practice based group of people. It's lovely, it's wonderful, people make connections with each other, it helps them to feel not so alone as meditating and meditators can feel very alone particularly if they don’t have people around them who understand what they’re doing, it can feel very isolating, and so to make contact with people who are doing this can feel very valuable and supportive.
Is there anything else that you’d like to say to people who might be watching this video who are looking for answers and who want to find peace?
Buddhism really values the search, the impulse within us to begin to wonder about, question, examine our lives and reflect on what more is there? We’re all schooled in how to create families, how to form relationships, how to find employment and livelihood, how to pursue different interests, spiritual practice, certainly buddhist practice is really looking at the fundamental issues of what is this life and how do we live it in a way that is the most fulfilling, brings the most happiness, and also is the most of service to others. And so I encourage anyone who feels such an impulse, to nurture that and to follow their trust and to explore whatever traditions, whatever practices they feel resonance with and have some affinity with, and to keep developing that until they feel that they have found something that they can really trust, and then to really engage that. And so anybody interested in buddhism living in NZ I would certainly encourage them to come to one of our affiliate groups, to learn meditation, to meet this group of people and to just explore it. They may find that it doesn’t resonate with them ultimately, but that it might help them to take the next step or they may find that it really does speak to them in a deep way and that they can then be guided in how to take more steps to deepen that. The most important thing is to not ignore that impulse, to really examine and look at one’s life in a deep way, and to take care of that.
